It's been a tumultuous time on the internet lately, Geoff fills Georgie in on a couple scandals circling over the past few months.
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It's been a tumultuous time on the internet lately, Geoff fills Georgie in on a couple scandals circling over the past few months.
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Toast & Roast:
Georgie:
Geoff:
Georgie 0:08
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Toast & Roast. I am your co host, Georgie and as usual, I am here with Geoff.
Geoff 0:18
Hello. Hello. It’s been a very controversial time in our lives.
Georgie 0:22
What’s what’s so controversial about it being raining outside?
Geoff 0:26
Oh, I mean, like, I did want to talk about this briefly, I guess. But it’s been just like a whole month of controversies. Have you not like seen all the news?
Georgie 0:38
I’ve seen some news.
Geoff 0:38
We start off, yeah, I think it kind of started around mid September, with the chess cheating allegations.
Georgie 0:50
Okay, so you’re gonna have to, you’re gonna have to be the, you know, the narrator in this because as you know, I don’t read the news, and so I rely on my friends to filter it for me and tell me the latest.
Geoff 1:05
Well, I mean, it’s not really on the news. But it’s been talked about a heap and a little bit hard to ignore, but apparently not hard to ignore.
Georgie 1:17
So is this like, potentially just some drama that is like niche, or just. It’s related to some niche, or community?
Geoff 1:26
Well, it’s related to the chess community. And I guess it’s, it’s between the chess world champion, and a 19 year old chess prodigy. Right? So basically, there was a I guess, a very big chess event. Like lots of prize money, lots of high ranking players are playing it. And I don’t know if everyone knows, but when you get to play chess, seriously, there’s an ELO. And that literally just means, oh what is the definition of ELO? I’ve never really—
Georgie 2:01
Electric Light Orchestra.
Geoff 2:05
(laughs)
Georgie 2:05
(laughs)
Geoff 2:08
That’s exactly what Google gave me, by the way.
Georgie 2:10
Good music by the way, good music but not really related to chess.
Geoff 2:15
“A method for calculating relative skill players in a zero sum game such as chess”. So if I am ELO, rating 600 and you are ELO rating 300 I am theoretically twice as good as you or something like that.
Georgie 2:30
Okay.
Geoff 2:31
Anyways, best chess player in the world at the moment. Magnus Carlsen, his ELO’s 22,800 and something, I think, Magnus ELO.
Georgie 2:43
So is this—
Geoff 2:44
Anyways—
Georgie 2:44
Is this like a comparative sort of scoring or scale? Like it’s relative?
Geoff 2:49
Yeah.
Georgie 2:50
Yeah.
Geoff 2:51
Yeah, so his is 2864. The next one down here is 2804. It’s kinda like, the ranking system is guarded by this place this organisation called FIDE, we don’t need to go into that. But essentially, if I, if I beat you, as a 600 player, and you’re a 300 player, I would get like, two points, because what the hell, I just beat someone, I’m punting down, essentially.
Georgie 3:16
Right.
Geoff 3:17
So if you play people along the same ranking, you get less points for winning. But if you play someone with higher ranking, you get more points for winning.
Georgie 3:27
So if I beat you, then I’d get like 10 points or something more.
Geoff 3:31
you get way more points than I would. Yes. Anyways, so he basically, the world champion, is playing the best games of his life. He has not, like dropped 25 games or something like that, streak. Against top ranking players, by the way. And then there’s guy who basically rose to the ranks of 2700 2800 from like, very low, all the way up within like two years or something like that. Which is ridiculous. He jumped from being like a baby at chess all the way to like, I don’t know, a 60 year old.
Georgie 4:09
And this is the 19 year old prodigy.
Geoff 4:11
Yeah, 19 year old prodigy. Anyway, so they’re playing chess, and the 19 year old prodigy beats the world champion. Now, it’s kind of inconsequential because they do best of however many games that you’ve played. So at the end, it’s not like Master Chef, when they’re like, “Oh, you lost once, oh, eliminate”—that’s stupid. But in any case, so he lost once and he’s not beyond losing. He’s lost plenty of times before. But he basically resigned from the the competition after losing. And he basically tweeted, I he, he tweeted the GIF, have you seen the GIF of the football manager? I don’t know how many people know this.
Georgie 5:00
I, this does not sound familiar.
Geoff 5:03
Basically, the football manager says, I can’t it’s like, I don’t want to speak. If I speak, I’ll get in trouble. I don’t want to speak or something like that. “I prefer not to speak, speaking would get me in trouble”. So.
Georgie 5:17
OK. He, he tweeted this with that gif.
Geoff 5:22
Yeah.
Georgie 5:23
And he lost.
Geoff 5:24
The World Champion said that. He tweeted this. Right.
Georgie 5:27
Right. Okay, that’s interesting.
Geoff 5:30
So everybody jumped on this implying that he they think that he is implying that the 19 year old cheated.
Georgie 5:38
Right. But he didn’t actually say that, but they’re just speculating based on this gif and this—
Geoff 5:43
Correct.
Georgie 5:45
Okay, okay.
Geoff 5:47
The thing is, it’s really hard to cheat in person on chess, you can cheat online, that’s like, easy. But in person, it’s hard to cheat.
Georgie 5:57
Yeah.
Geoff 5:58
And so without evidence of it, you can’t really come out and say that guy’s cheating, otherwise defamation.
Georgie 6:07
How, so hang on, wait, let’s let’s backtrack. Like two seconds.
Geoff 6:11
Yeah.
Georgie 6:12
You said you can’t really cheat in chess in person. Like, how like, how could, sorry, how could you cheat into if we were to talk about it?
Geoff 6:21
Yeah. Right. So I’ve read up about a few, I’ve seen a few things. And I’ve read a few things. But essentially, the last person that was officially caught cheating and over the board in in person had a computer in his shoe, I think.
Georgie 6:36
OK.
Geoff 6:36
Correct me if I’m wrong, anybody who’s following the story closer than me, but he had a computer in his shoe. And the thing with high level chess is that you can, you don’t have to tell them the move to take. If you tell them, you’re in a good position, that there is possibly a better move than the one you’re thinking of. You go look for it. It’s kind of one of those things where, if you don’t know it’s there, you don’t see it. But if you know, it could be there, you will see it, kind of scenario. Yeah. I don’t know how else to put it.
Georgie 7:10
But if you see a good move, and then the your opponent doesn’t see it. I just don’t understand how you could cheat in this. Do you talk to the opponent? What if you—
Geoff 7:21
No no. Let’s say, you’re, you’re in the middle of a chess game.
Georgie 7:21
Yeah.
Geoff 7:23
Your turn, you have to move a piece. Right? So you could have a chess engine, just tell you all move the knight to whatever square. But at super high level chess, you’re sitting there, like calculating multiple moves and the outcomes of those moves and how they’d be beneficial to you.
Georgie 7:50
Yeah, you’re doing it in your head. And then you make a decision based on what you’re thinking.
Geoff 7:54
Make a decision. So the theory here, and I guess most the most of the grandmasters at chess, I would say is that if someone literally just tapped you on the shoulder, every time they knew that you have a great move, a possible best move, then it is very likely that person will be able to see it.
Georgie 8:21
Right.
Geoff 8:22
See it for themselves. Because if I’m like, oh, I have this little situation on the left side of the board. And I’m concentrating on that, and I’m trying to figure out how to get out of that situation, or turn that situation into my favour, or try to attack or defend or whatever. But I’m only concentrating on that side of the board. But if someone tapped me on the shoulder and said, “hey, like, there’s a really good move”.
Georgie 8:47
Right, OK.
Geoff 8:47
“You could possibly win the game”, then I’d be like, “Oh”.
Georgie 8:51
Then you’d look for it.
Geoff 8:51
Maybe it’s not here, then I’ll go look for it. So it’s like a it’s almost like you just need that one per, one thing—
Georgie 8:59
A clue.
Geoff 8:59
That tells you—yeah, a clue.
Georgie 9:00
Okay. Yeah.
Geoff 9:03
So you don’t actually have to tell them what the move is. You just have to tell them that, “hey, you could you could win this”.
Georgie 9:09
Yeah. And so that’s how the, how the computer like works, like.
Geoff 9:14
So. Somebody who would be controlling the buzz in the shoe—
Georgie 9:20
Right, I get it.
Geoff 9:21
Have a chess engine on a computer and says, “Hey, there’s an optimal move”. So it just taps you on the on the foot saying “optimal move”.
Georgie 9:28
So there’s literally literally somebody else is involved in this, like in the audience or who, or someone who’s watching the game.
Geoff 9:35
Yeah.
Georgie 9:35
Or on television or wherever it’s broadcast. And they’re communicating with the chess player to help them and yeah, okay, that’s definitely cheating.
Geoff 9:45
Yeah, right. So, um, but there’s no like solid proof yet that the 19 year old cheated in that game, but the overall sentiment is that the kid cheats a lot online.
Georgie 9:59
Hah. OK. Wait, wait before we get go down this and you share more info.
Geoff 10:04
Yeah.
Georgie 10:05
Is there potential, like I’m thinking, people love to hate on like prodigies. And—
Geoff 10:11
Yeah, yeah.
Georgie 10:11
I’m wondering if they would just like, you know, like you’re saying, Kid rises up to the rises up the ranks, like very quickly over a short period of time beats the best person in the world at chess, kind of sus, person hasn’t had much experience playing chess, can we just hate on them? Is like, that, that could be a thing too, right?
Geoff 10:31
Well, the way he gets the ranking, and to get to Grandmaster title is a series of games against other grandmasters. So you actually have to play a lot of higher level ranking players to get your ranking. So he’s not like, he’s not like, like a brand new guy who, like, doesn’t, hasn’t played all the chess and he’s beat the world champion, in which case, that’ll just be a fluke, right? It’s like a kid beats the world champion, it’s like uh, kind of a fluke.
Georgie 11:03
Yeah. But everyone is saying that he’s probably done that, but cheated every single time.
Geoff 11:10
Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. So that’s kind of where the online stuff came in, is that they had statistical analysis on his games that he... he basically... they think they he just makes the right moves when it counts. So—
Georgie 11:32
Like he’s too good?
Geoff 11:34
Well, despite the fact that the game, he’s been playing normal chess, and he isn’t he’s a really good chess player without like, all the speculation. But that’s, the theory is that when the going gets tough in a chess game—
Georgie 11:52
He knows—
Geoff 11:52
He makes, he makes engine-like moves to get himself a win. So despite looking at the game objectively, and go, “Oh, yeah, he just played normal chess”. The fact is that it’s sprinkled in there is like a lie. It’s like a white lie. Right? You sprinkle some of the lie, some of the truth in the lie to make it sound like the truth.
Georgie 12:15
Yeah.
Geoff 12:16
So he’s like, sprinkling in engine, like chess engine moves to win. Anyways, there’s a lot of data. And I think the whole thing is everyone’s like, “Oh, this gy definitely cheated”. So everyone’s having confirmation bias left, right, and centre.
Georgie 12:29
Yeah, that’s exactly I was thinking like, is it possible that everyone’s just jumping on this? Because they’ve heard everybody go, “guy’s cheating”. And they’re like, “oh, oh, yeah, actually, like, that makes a lot of sense”, because they heard the word “cheating”. But I was thinking, can you do some kind of statistical analysis into the way every competitive chess player plays in games?
Geoff 12:29
Yeah.
Georgie 12:30
And like percentage of like, you know, successful moves, or really good moves, or whatever, and then compare it to this guy? Because then you would know if he’s, like, literally better than average, or, you know—
Geoff 13:03
And I watched a video where this guy did exactly that.
Georgie 13:05
(laughs) Shit.
Geoff 13:06
He he did correlation. So he said, right. When when you are a 2200 player, you obviously make less accurate moves. So you lose more points in the match while you’re playing, because when you take a pawn, you lose some points, er, you gain points. And win the position, anyway, so he did that. He said, when it’s 2200, this is around the accuracy level.
Georgie 13:35
Yeah.
Geoff 13:35
As you get better, your accuracy gets higher, obviously, right?
Georgie 13:40
Yeah.
Geoff 13:41
He matched, he went to other prodigies, and he did all of this across, like 200 plus games. And he got to this 19 year old and he’s like, look, the dude, he hasn’t gotten better. He, he started from 2300. And then he got to 2500. And all of a sudden, he’d made this huge leap in accuracy.
Georgie 14:03
Ah.
Geoff 14:05
So the accuracy is, I’ll just briefly go over the like the number but 26 is Grandmaster accuracy, and 45 is noob level accuracy. So lower, lower point, number, higher accuracy. 2500 he reached 26, which is around the Grandmaster, super, super Grandmaster world champion at 2500. And then his accuracy goes down, as he increases from 2500 to 26 to 20, 2700.
Georgie 14:39
Okay, interesting.
Geoff 14:40
And it goes, and then it goes back up when he reached 2700. So actually, he’s been playing, his, his accuracy hasn’t changed between 2500 and 2700 ranking, it’s just all sus. So sus.
Georgie 14:53
So what would you expect from just like an ordinary, like competitive player? Would you expect the accuracy just just gradually improves as you—
Geoff 15:00
Yeah.
Georgie 15:01
And he’s—
Geoff 15:02
Linear.
Georgie 15:02
And he’s just like some mountain bell curve weird thing.
Geoff 15:06
Exactly. It’s insane. Anyways, so this data scientist and programmer, he’s just like, man, everybody’s like drawing up these charts and all these stats and they meet, they’re like, they’re bullshit, they’re picking, they’re picking specific games, and they’re comparing it wrong. And data science doesn’t work that way. So he went and loaded up everybody’s chess games and he did the correlations, the diffs, and...
Georgie 15:31
Wow, so what was the response to that video, then?
Geoff 15:36
There’s no response. It’s all just speculation. No one can prove anything.
Georgie 15:40
But I mean, from the community or from people watching it. Are they like, “Oh, wow, yeah, I”...?
Geoff 15:45
Yeah, generally, yeah. Like the other, the other super grandmasters are looking at this and say, this, this looks reasonable, right? There’s no way to do, refute this and there’s other more official like the the organisation FIDE, and the biggest chess website chess.com are doing their own data scientist type of analysis to figure it out.
Georgie 16:12
So yeah, wow. And you said when you’re a player, you can’t like accuse someone of cheating without being able to prove it.
Geoff 16:23
Yeah.
Georgie 16:23
So, so this guy could have a computer in his shoe or he could have used some other method that he hid, or some—
Geoff 16:30
Do you want to know the ongoing theory on what method it is?
Georgie 16:33
Sure we love this.
Geoff 16:36
So Elon Musk, our beloved Elon Musk—
Georgie 16:39
Take with a grain of salt, everybody. Large handful of salt.
Geoff 16:42
He tweeted out—buckets of salt. He tweeted out, “anal beads”.
Georgie 16:50
Right.
Geoff 16:53
Obviously trolling.
Georgie 16:56
Hang on, wait, wait, let’s entertain this. Wait, as in going in, or out?
Geoff 17:02
No, anal beads vibrating inside him.
Georgie 17:06
Oh, so literally hiding inside of his body. Wow.
Geoff 17:09
Yeah.
Georgie 17:10
Well.
Geoff 17:10
(laughs) Everyone’s like—
Georgie 17:12
Like remote control?
Geoff 17:13
Wow you have to learn morse code in his ass.
Georgie 17:17
Gotta admit, look, I don’t know. I don’t know anything about anal beads. Besides, they are beads you put in the anus and related, they’re like a sex toy. But I did not know there was such thing as remote vibrating anal beads. There you go.
Geoff 17:33
Yeah. Yeah. So so that blew up. And it’s hilarious because the US World Championships for chess is going on now. And everyone’s getting scanned.
Georgie 17:45
Yeah, understandably.
Geoff 17:47
The only the only person who got turned around to scan up the back. Is this 19 year old.
Georgie 17:53
Really? Really?
Geoff 17:54
Yeah, no one else got scaned in the butt.
Georgie 17:57
Surely that’s like a bit of like discrimination or something.
Geoff 18:00
Yeah, this poor guy though. This poor kid. He’s he’s 19, his chess, his chess career is at stake here. And he has the world champion, calling him out for cheating.
Georgie 18:12
Can you can you imagine if he was innocent? If this was legit.
Geoff 18:18
Yes.
Georgie 18:20
It’s well, yeah, it’s quite, yeah, it’s not not very good.
Geoff 18:24
So the other side of this is that this kid has been cheating a lot online. And they have statistical proof that he has cheated in a lot of prize money, online competitions. The, and he has cheated against his, his colleagues. So people who are in the same ranking, he’s cheated against them as well. So here, you put two and two together. One side, it’s just online. Like who gives a shit if you cheat online? Except when?
Georgie 18:58
When money.
Geoff 18:59
It’s money? Yeah, yeah, money’s involved. And you got over the board, like cheating online doesn’t mean you can cheat off the board, but propensity to cheat is there. So now the two combined, people are thinking, well, if you know this guy has the propensity to cheat, you play chess differently. Like, generally, when you play chess engines, chess engines are only good at I think, tactical, whatever, that, I honestly haven’t figured out the difference between strategic and tactical chess. But chess engines play a certain way and you tend to avoid moves that will play into how well a chess engine can play. So that is where I sit at the moment is like yep, I mean, this guy doesn’t probably didn’t cheat in that chess competition, over, like in person, but his propensity to cheat would make me nervous, and make me play weird. If I think that this guy could possibly be cheating at that time. So the jury’s still out. Nobody knows if he’s cheated. Did he cheat in person? Probably not. Did he put off the world champion whilst playing because he’s cheated in the past? Maybe? The World Champion, honestly just doesn’t want cheating to exist. So he doesn’t really care too much about that competition. You know, he doesn’t care about losing. He just wants the sanctity of chess.
Georgie 20:30
Yeah, a fair game. Right.
Geoff 20:32
Justice. Yeah, fair game.
Georgie 20:33
It’s really interesting, though. Imagine, imagine if this kid was some, like cheating and has been cheating this whole time and obviously getting away with it. Could he not? I don’t know is that, you know, you know, those stories of people who do wrong, or they like the Edward Snowden thing. Like—
Geoff 20:53
Yeah.
Georgie 20:53
You know, people yeah, or people who end up like getting hired by the FBI or something because of because of what they do. Like is I wonder, is there room for this kid to do something good with such skill.
Geoff 21:09
Yeah. Yeah, like, oh, he’s figured out how to cheat really well. So he’s going to go figure out other people cheating.
Georgie 21:17
Yeah, exactly. That’s yeah.
Geoff 21:20
Turn him into a white hat. That was number one. And then number two’s The Try Guys.
Georgie 21:31
What happened with the Try—because I think I only—
Geoff 21:33
Oh wow.
Georgie 21:34
I think actually, I don’t really follow them. And I don’t watch their stuff. But like you and I’ve talked a bit about some of their content before so so what happened?
Geoff 21:44
Ooooh, the tea.
Georgie 21:47
I’ve got tea.
Geoff 21:47
Don’t spill the tea everybody.
Georgie 21:49
I’m drinking this?
Geoff 21:50
Drink your tea. So one of the Try Guys, I don’t know if you know who he is. But Ned Fulmer. I know his name now because of all the scandals but this guy, the redhead Try Guy.
Georgie 22:05
Yeah, he’s, he looks familiar.
Geoff 22:09
Yeah. So his scandal is that he got into a relationship with an employee.
Georgie 22:15
Like an inappropriate relation, like a non consensual or?
Geoff 22:19
No, he said, consensual but is it really consensual if your boss is coming on to you?
Georgie 22:24
Wait, wait, hang on. Wait, you got to explain the—
Geoff 22:26
Yeah.
Georgie 22:27
So. So he was, he’s, what is he like a? What’s his position in the?
Geoff 22:32
Oh, he’s a founder. So he’s co founder with all the three other guys. So yeah.
Georgie 22:37
And then he was in a relationship like, allegedly in a relationship with somebody—
Geoff 22:42
Not alleged, he came out and admitted it.
Georgie 22:46
Okay, so he said he’d been in a relationship of some kind with someone who is an employee?
Geoff 22:52
Employee? Yeah. Yeah.
Georgie 22:53
Did that person say anything?
Geoff 22:56
So how it kind of broke down is that the Try Guys, the other three, had heard rumours, or seen some, there’s material, essentially, people have taken photos of them in public kissing or video of them.
Georgie 23:11
Okay.
Geoff 23:12
So they went and confirmed they went to Ned, and the involved parties and confirmed that this is, this is true.
Georgie 23:22
This is a relationship.
Geoff 23:23
He admitted. This is a relationship. They’ve been in a relationship, for, suspected relationship for a year or so.
Georgie 23:30
Okay. And now it was confirmed.
Geoff 23:32
Now now. I mean, they went on a pod, the podcast, their own podcast and explained it. But essentially, they reached out to both of them, they had confirmed that they are in a relationship. And then they had to basically go into crisis mode. Like you can’t come out and just say we’re like firing him for this fireable offense, apparently.
Georgie 23:58
So.
Geoff 24:01
They have to go through, like they can’t—
Georgie 24:03
Wait—
Geoff 24:04
Until legal kind of—
Georgie 24:06
Backtrack.
Geoff 24:07
Yeah.
Georgie 24:07
So I’m guessing it’s against like, the rules of being employed there.
Geoff 24:14
Yeah?
Georgie 24:14
You cannot be in a relationship with anyone or with the found, like, what is the?
Geoff 24:20
I think the general rule of all businesses is that the boss can’t be in a relationship with their direct report or a report. Right? There’s a power dynamic, you can’t obviously maybe say no, because he might fire you. Or make your life hell or do whatever.
Georgie 24:43
But that’s, okay. Hang on. I need to (laughs)
Geoff 24:47
Haha, that’s alright.
Georgie 24:48
I’m thinking about this because like, what if? Okay, yes, there’s a power dynami—I’m just thinking of like, I’m trying to think to my company... employee handbook, also, just as a disclaimer, all opinions are my own here, I feel like we, I actually thought about this recently.
Geoff 25:07
No one knows where we live—oh, they do know who we work for.
Georgie 25:10
Yeah. So.
Geoff 25:11
OK nevermind.
Georgie 25:11
Just generally, maybe we need to actually do like put somewhere on our like podcasts like “views are our own”.
Geoff 25:17
Just cover ourselves legally.
Georgie 25:18
“...not of our employees”. But last time, I looked at our employee handbook with such rules, which I have occasionally revisited, just to check like others, like on other things, and sometimes it gets updated. I just can’t remember there being like, actually, no, you’re right. I think it does say like, if there is—it doesn’t say, I don’t think it says it’s not allowed. But I think it says if there is a relationship between yeah, like a, like a, what do you call it? It’s a person and their subordinate, I think.
Geoff 25:50
Yeah.
Georgie 25:51
Is the technical term. If there is a relationship, then that needs to be, like something needs to be done, so that they are no longer in that like, like you said, power dynamic.
Geoff 26:02
Oh yeah, you move them over.
Georgie 26:03
Yeah, like, or you demote one of them or something to that effect. Or, like, yeah, move teams or something like that.
Geoff 26:10
Yeah.
Georgie 26:11
But this guy’s the what, the founder?
Geoff 26:13
This guy’s the founder. Anyway, so this, just ignoring the backstory, or rather the fact that the Try Guys had like known prior to breaking out, essentially a video went up on Reddit, and they found that everyone pieced it together themselves obviously because it’s the internet.
Georgie 26:39
OK.
Geoff 26:40
They essentially went back to some of the some of the more recent YouTube videos with, and they found out that Ned had had been cut out of the videos.
Georgie 26:51
Okay, so wait he’s gone now? Is, what is the? Okay.
Geoff 26:55
They kicked him out. They’ve kicked him out essentially. And then everyone’s like, oh shit, like they, like what’s happening. Is he is he actually like is the rumours confirmed, etc? And then they came out and confirmed it essentially, like Ned had been removed from—
Georgie 27:11
So did they—
Geoff 27:12
You can look at their Instagram.
Georgie 27:13
Did they boot him? Or was he like, “I’ll get out of here”?
Geoff 27:15
That’s a good question, actually, I think I think it may have like been a mutual like thing. Here we go, Ned Fulmer, stupid thing. “Ned Fulmer is no longer”, oh, stupid thing. Why can’t I look at Instagram without logging in anymore? It’s ridiculous. “Ned Fulmer is no longer...” (scoffs) Fine.
Georgie 27:40
(laughs) You just have to deal with it Geoff. Anyway, this is why this is why we don’t like Instagram. It’s frustrating at times.
Geoff 27:48
Yeah. What’s wrong with letting people...?
Georgie 27:52
Yeah, I guess... Yeah.
Geoff 27:54
Ned Fulmer is no longer working with the Try Guys as a result of a thorough internal review. We do not see a path forward together. We thank you for your support as we navigate this change.
Georgie 28:02
Okay, so can I ask you what is the actual, like, can you just sum it up for me, like don’t tirade, but what is the actual, what is the actual controversy here?
Geoff 28:12
The controversy is that—oh, right. I completely skipped over the controversy.
Georgie 28:16
I’m like okay, good. This thing is not good. Okay, this thing happened. I get it, makes sense, person leaves the company. But what is the actual controversy? Like, was there? I was, what, I was waiting for you to go like, “Oh, my God, someone was abused” or something.
Geoff 28:29
Right. So the guy’s married, for one.
Georgie 28:31
Oh, okay. So he was already in a relationship. And then he was, okay. All right.
Geoff 28:36
Yeah. And he, oh, what was it? Yeah, yeah, he’s married. But his entire personality, internet personality is the married guy. He basically brags about her 24/7, they’ve made videos about how much he loves his wife. And like his entire, like persona on the internet is—
Georgie 29:02
Yes.
Geoff 29:02
He loves his wife. So when you break, the controversy is like he’s broken that personality, and I don’t think anyone could trust him anymore.
Georgie 29:12
But it’s the internet!
Geoff 29:14
Yes.
Georgie 29:15
It’s a persona. It’s—
Geoff 29:16
Yeah, it’s yeah.
Georgie 29:20
This is very strange. To me, this is a very strange thing, right? Because I mean—
Geoff 29:26
He’s been cancelled.
Georgie 29:28
Yeah, that sucks and I do feel bad for him actually. It just doesn’t, it doesn’t seem like fair. And then it sort of makes me think of just the way people see celebrities on like, web celebrities, I’m not using the fucking portmanteau of those two words. But like it,
Geoff 29:50
Weblerities?.
Georgie 29:50
Oh, no. It’s the, ce-web-rities. Gross.
Geoff 29:56
Serious?
Georgie 29:57
Excuse me.
Geoff 29:58
Is that a thing?
Georgie 29:58
Clean my mouth. Far our, yes, cewebrities, bloody hell, anyway—
Geoff 30:03
Oh, who the hell says that?
Georgie 30:04
I don’t know, it could have been very 2000s for all I know. Now I feel old. But, I mean, yeah, these people are scrutinised all the time for everything they do and judged and whatnot. And like, I don’t, okay, I’m not mad about this, but I was with someone, like in a relationship with someone for like, almost seven years. Like, like a while ago. And I wasn’t, like I had a presence online. And I often blogged about my ex, and some, some pictures and some things that we did together. And when, when I broke up with him, I didn’t really, like say anything immediately. But then I started, like, later on, some time had passed after the breakup. And then I posted a couple of pictures with Nick, because we were in a relationship. And one of my, I guess, long, long time internet friends asked me, oh, like, what happened to, my ex’s name. It’s so funny that I say that, because literally anyone can go to my blog and try and figure that shit out. But whatever. They’re like, oh, like, yeah, what happened to like, what happened to your ex, like you were together for such a long time. It was just strange that someone was like, wondering, and felt like a personal question, because like, I say, this person is my online friend. But I wasn’t like extremely close to them.
Geoff 31:43
Invasion.
Georgie 31:44
People get really, you know, they really wonder about people’s relationships when they see it online and get really obsessed with other people’s love lives. I guess. I have a friend who just went through a breakup. And she had a lot of people asking her, where’s, where’s your ex, she was like, I don’t want this. It’s just really mind blowing how obsessive people get over the personal lives of people that they may not know.
Geoff 32:14
Yeah, I think like, when you build your entire, I guess, company or like, business on yourself, that that yourself somehow becomes like public property, which is just ridiculous.
Georgie 32:37
But no one owns you. It’s more so that like, people shouldn’t be mad. Like, it’s like people can do what they want with their lives. I feel like people shouldn’t be so judgmental about it.
Geoff 32:48
Yeah. Yeah. So I know a few people who don’t buy products from people they don’t like.
Georgie 32:55
Okay, yeah, this makes sense, right? I mean, I can understand—
Geoff 32:57
Like Elon Musk. And to me I’m like, I mean, I don’t care how many children he has with how many women, he makes a good car. Subjectively. So I’m just gonna go buy the car?
Georgie 33:13
Well, that’s because you don’t have a problem with him. You don’t fundamentally—
Geoff 33:19
Oh, hasn’t hasn’t fundamentally affected my values.
Georgie 33:23
Yeah, you don’t have a problem, you be like, cool, it’s his life. Like he can have as many children as he wants. He can have those children with different women because that’s what he wants. And like, I honestly feel the same way. Fine. He can do that. I still personally I don’t like the way he presents. He’s so awkward. Like he’s a little bit silly. I don’t but like I don’t harbour those, you know, terrible feelings. But some people do feel affected. I guess, like if someone maybe is extremely racist, then you don’t want to you might not want to support them.
Geoff 33:23
Yeah.
Georgie 33:24
That kind of thing.
I don’t know. I’ve said like, as long as my money is not going directly to fund, like—
Yeah you did say this.
Geoff 34:05
Blood diamonds and like Nazis, then like, sure, whatever. But I think your point is pretty good is that it hasn’t like conflicted with my own adult values. So I can’t really make a—
Georgie 34:22
Peop—that happens to a lot of people. I think. That they just have children with different people. There’s no, I feel like there’s no reason to sh—I mean, I don’t know his history.
Geoff 34:34
It’s a controversy, let me fill you in.
Georgie 34:35
Oh, really?
Geoff 34:37
(laughs) No, no. Yeah, he’s... so the weird there’s only one strange thing here is that and he’s he broke up with his wife, Grimes. And then and then has a child on the way with one of his executives, speaking of boss—
Georgie 35:01
Right.
Geoff 35:01
Executive, boss and employee relationships. Anyways, he impregnated an executive. And then we found out that he they actually, him and Grimes have had an open relationship and they have a baby on the way via surrogate.
Georgie 35:16
Yeah.
Geoff 35:17
A secret baby. So I’m like, okay, like, this is a few too many layers.
Georgie 35:24
And so my question is, though, Geoff, why are you so obsessed with this? Why do you know this? And why do you care? And I guess this is my point for every other person who’s kind of like, judging celebrities, and famous people in their lives as well. It’s like, is it really any of our business?
Geoff 35:43
I mean, I agree. I don’t think it’s very much any of our business to judge them on their personal lives. But generally this stuff literally is more pushed upon me. I don’t, I don’t read news. But I’m,
Georgie 36:03
You’re exposed to the the stuff.
Geoff 36:04
I’m into the internet enough. I’m into the internet enough to get spoilers about Game of Thrones and stuff like that. Sure. You don’t watch Game of Thrones, but you probably know, the top five. Yeah. Either people or yeah, the names of them. Names of characters.
Georgie 36:19
I think, I think I know two.
Geoff 36:22
Yeah, top five plot twists.
Georgie 36:23
Hold up, wait, one thing is that everybody dies.
Geoff 36:27
Yeah?
Georgie 36:27
I know there’s someone called Danaerys and there’s Jon Snow.
Geoff 36:31
Yeah, there you go. Do you know that they’re cousins and they’re fucking?
Georgie 36:35
(laughs) I know there’s—no, I don’t think so. But I also know that there’s like a terrible rape scene that was rather controversial, in one of the episodes.
Geoff 36:46
Which one?
Georgie 36:47
Maybe it was towards the end?
Geoff 36:50
Anyways. So yeah, like there’s there’s just generally like, this Try Guys thing. They themselves were like, oh, we have an audience. And it’s probably going to affect the audience. But they have seen articles on Rolling Stones, like, I don’t know, Business Insider look at this, let’s see some, like legit publications are covering this. Just because it’s gotten so big. That I think it’s just hard to hard to miss.
Georgie 37:23
I also feel like probably a lot of those articles are really exaggerated.
Geoff 37:28
Oh, 100%.
Georgie 37:28
Like, I read something that said, something scandal, wait scroll down. Yeah. “cheating scandal”.
Geoff 37:34
Yeah, cheating scandal.
Georgie 37:37
They’re making this guy out to be like a terrible person when I doubt they know like, you know, the whole story or whatever.
Geoff 37:42
It wasn’t like human trafficking! Like—
Georgie 37:45
(laughs) It’s, I don’t know, I just I remember seeing recently as well, like, you know, Jessica Simpson, the singer. She’s.
Geoff 37:52
Yes.
Georgie 37:53
She’s been on, I think she also acts, but she’s been in the public eye for like, a long time, since she was young. And someone had mentioned that every single time her weight changed the, like, articles, the articles scrutinising her, and this happens to a lot of like women, famous women actually, and it’s so shallow, and they’re always commenting, saying, oh look, this was her three years ago, she’s gained some weight. It’s like what is wrong with gaining weight? You know?
Geoff 38:23
Yeah, yeah.
Georgie 38:24
She was pregnant. “Look how much weight she’s gained while pregnant”. It’s like, well, duh? Like?
Geoff 38:31
I’ve heard people getting offended by the body shapes of celebrities. The like—
Georgie 38:39
Oh.
Geoff 38:41
Who was it? Was it Adele? Someone lost weight, essentially, someone who is slightly on the larger side lost weight, they publicly, yeah, they publicly said “this offends me”.
Georgie 38:52
I think it might have been Adele.
Geoff 38:53
“You’re not allowed”. Yeah, “you’re not allowed to do this”. Like what? That’s just ridiculous. And I get why, like they’ve probably tied their, you know, self and identity like “oh, she’s a big woman. I’m big woman. This is great”.
Georgie 39:06
Oh, you mean when people are literally offended?
Geoff 39:09
Yeah.
Georgie 39:09
By a celebrity changing. Like, “you’ve changed, oh my god” or whatever. And it’s like, dude, she’s her own person. Let her fucking live.
Geoff 39:17
Yeah, exactly. It’s sort of like their identity was their weight. And then like, they decided to lose some weight and then all of a sudden, they’re like, you are... “You’re a liar, a bitch”, like they just hate on them.
Georgie 39:32
Yeah. Also, I wanted to add that like, this is something that a lot of people try to remind others is that not all weight gain is sorry, not all weight loss is good. And not all weight gain is bad. People think that you know, Adele, for example, lost weight, it’s like “oh that’s good. She lost weight, because she was fat before” and it’s like what was wrong with either of them. She looks good. Like let her do what she wants to live. And you know what if that weight loss was to do with illness like it’s very, yeah. And the magazines and tabloids and, you know, daily fucking mail will always like, exaggerate this to no end.
Geoff 40:13
yeah, the the other thing was also I think I saw Billie Eilish.
Georgie 40:19
Yeah. Oh yeah.
Geoff 40:19
She started wearing regular, like—
Georgie 40:22
Less baggy clothes.
Geoff 40:23
Regular? Less baggy clothes. And like, “oh, you said you said like 5, 10 years ago when you were like 15 that you didn’t care about like clothes and and these things and showing off your body and then now you’re doing it. Oh my god”.
Georgie 40:38
“You’re a hypocrite” and all this stuff.
Geoff 40:40
Hypocrite! Jesus.
Georgie 40:41
She can change her mind. She’s allowed.
Geoff 40:46
They like, yeah, they’re celebrities, by the way. I mean, to a degree I guess they don’t give a shit about your opinion.
Georgie 40:55
They got to have a thick skin. I imagine some of them would, but you know at the same time back to the Jessica Simpson thing, I think she actually said. She felt pretty heartbroken by these comments of from the media just obsessing over her weight as well.
Geoff 41:08
It’s crazy. I bet no matter how thick a skin you got, it’s always going to you know, come at you.
Georgie 41:15
Yeah.
Geoff 41:15
If it’s relentless, it will weather you down. You’re just like, these are the people that are supposedly, like enjoying the things I create. And they constantly hate me.
Georgie 41:27
And then you have trolls as well who like literally go out of their way to like, anger you or like get a reaction out of you.
Geoff 41:35
Exactly. You know what we get a reaction out of us, the ending to this episode.
Georgie 41:41
Terrible.
Geoff 41:41
I hope you don’t hate us.
Georgie 41:43
People are judging us behind the—“those people, on the podcast!”
Geoff 41:48
“Ooh, these, these guys. They make a 40 minute episode and then next they make a 45 minute episode, and then they go back to 41, God!”
Georgie 41:58
“And then the guy like forgets to turn the right microphone on!”
Geoff 42:03
“God!”
Georgie 42:04
“For two whole episodes!”
Geoff 42:06
“He cares about quality? (spit) I spit on his quality!” (laughs) Anyways, you can follow us on @toastroastpost on Instagram, no not Instagram—
Georgie 42:18
Well you can, but there won’t be anything there.
Geoff 42:21
There won’t be anything there. You’d be left in the dust. “They said they like, they were gonna push Instagram and then now they don’t! They’re liars!”
Georgie 42:29
“They’re hypocrites!”
Geoff 42:31
“Hypocrites! Cancel them. Scandal.”
Georgie 42:34
You can find our episodes on Spotify—I said it the wrong way around but Apple Podcasts as well. Wherever you find your podcasts and the big, please roast us.
Geoff 42:47
And, yeah, we’re open to roasting on Twitter, I guess. New episodes every Monday.
Georgie 42:54
So see you next week next week.
Geoff 42:56
Bye.